The Generals Rebel

[Goodwill]

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!" -Patrick Henry

I don't see how this relates to the present day. Are you saying the present government has you shackled and repressed flea?


"If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its freedom; and the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money that it values more, it will lose that too." -Somerset Maugham

Who do you think pays for all of the social programs? Yes its companies who turn a profit who in turn hire people to work and pay taxes.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." -Benjamin Franklin

I got nothing to hide, if they want to listen in on a phone call so be it. Actually you should be more concerned with you local government taking your land and/or house for the good of the community. Your liberal buddies on the surpreme court allows that one.

[fleaflicker]

So what you are saying is that you are so worried about terrorist attacks that the threat of terrorism justifies the government taking away essential freedoms from the people of the United States? The fourth amendment says something about having to have a warrent to search through a person's possessions. The government can come pretty darn close without a search warrant, and they have, many a time, done an illegal search without a warrent. Civil Rights activists in the 1950s were often accused of being Communists, and after being unjustly arrested, their homes would be ransacked. Nothing is new under the sun. The United States government hasn't respected the rights of the people on this for quite a while.

And take another a look at the ninth amendment. "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

In other words, even though the right to privacy and the right to not have people listening into all your conversations and correspondances isn't outlined in the Constitution, chances are that the founding fathers did intend such a right to exist. Even though it isn't explicitly there, it can be assumed that with the fourth amendment being against search and seizure, then the ninth implies that a right to privacy exists.

So here's the question: Are you so worried about terrorists that you think we should give up our fourth and ninth amendment rights to enable them to perhaps prevent an attack? Even if it did prevent an attack, is it worth it to have a country that's a little safer but a lot more repressed? This is the same argument that a lot of the gun haters use, and they're not even right about less guns making the country safer, but that's another story....

Tell me which is more valuable to you: freedom or safety?

[El-Moldo]

fleaflicker is right. Don't we all want to be able to voice our displeasure when the next attack occurs? Surely we'd want to criticize our government for not keeping us safe!! After all, it's freedom of speech, right?

[Goodwill]

Did you read the Patriot Act flea? I am guessing you didn't. Ok now that is settled what do you suggest our government should do? Ah I know wait until the terrorists hit our country again, talk tough (just like the liberals did after 9/11) then wait a few years and start blaming Bush for not being tough enough (keep in mind he will be out of office and they still will be blaming him).

[fleaflicker]

Goodwill, I asked you a specific question, and I want an answer. I know about the Patriot Act, and asking me if I know about isn't relevant to the question. Here is the question, once again: DO YOU VALUE YOUR SAFETY OVER YOUR FREEDOM?

[Goodwill]

[quote="Goodwill";p="121883"]"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!" -Patrick Henry

I don't see how this relates to the present day. Are you saying the present government has you shackled and repressed flea?


"If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its freedom; and the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money that it values more, it will lose that too." -Somerset Maugham

Who do you think pays for all of the social programs? Yes its companies who turn a profit who in turn hire people to work and pay taxes.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." -Benjamin Franklin

I got nothing to hide, if they want to listen in on a phone call so be it. Actually you should be more concerned with you local government taking your land and/or house for the good of the community. Your liberal buddies on the surpreme court allows that one.[/quote]

If you want to get picky please answer these questions I asked you before you posed a question to me. Thank you for playing along nicely.

[fleaflicker]

[quote="Goodwill";p="121883"]"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!" -Patrick Henry

I don't see how this relates to the present day. Are you saying the present government has you shackled and repressed flea?


"If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its freedom; and the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money that it values more, it will lose that too." -Somerset Maugham

Who do you think pays for all of the social programs? Yes its companies who turn a profit who in turn hire people to work and pay taxes.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." -Benjamin Franklin

I got nothing to hide, if they want to listen in on a phone call so be it. Actually you should be more concerned with you local government taking your land and/or house for the good of the community. Your liberal buddies on the surpreme court allows that one.[/quote]

The people today pay more taxes to the American government than the colonists did when they rebelled. The only difference is that we are able to vote, but we are still stuck between voting for the lesser of two evils. One wants to take away guns, the other wants to repress certain groups of people and try and force Christianity down everybody's throat. Nobody is for making the government less powerful, when they can take your home and give it to a third party that will not use it to benefit the public, and a government that arrests people for exercising their personal right to peacably assemble and petition the government for redress (also known as protest). And according to the ninth amendment, I should have many of the rights (such as that to privacy and holding onto my home), I have had many of my rights taken. There's all kinds of gun control. There's many people (such as those in Guatanomo Bay) not even hearing the charges against, which is a fundamental right of ALL people. The government is taking the position that it grants people rights, not a higher power. And saying that is essential to being able to take them. So yes, the United State government is repressive.

The government also pays for many social programs, as well as companies, but the reason we have social security troubles is because the government often treats these programs like a bank that they are free to withdraw from. Companies pay for many social programs too. But how is that relevant to the Patriot Act?

And what I know about the Patriot Act is that it allows the government wider powers of search and seizure, and allows them to view records of what books you buy or get at the library. Many things that the government knows though (like they probably have a good idea about many things you buy) are illegal or downright unconstitutional (like the feds keeping an extensive database of who bought what guns in 27 participating states. Pennsylvania is one of them, but fortunately for me, Kentucky is not).

Now here's the crux: What you are telling me is that the threat of terrorism supercedes all your freedoms, and the government should be able to do whatever the hell they want as long as there is a snowball's chance that it might turn up a terrorist. So in essense, you are arguing for safety over freedom. That is why I ask you this, straight up: DO YOU VALUE SAFETY OR FREEDOM?

If you pick freedom, you need to look at what you are saying and take a deep look at what your values are, because you seem like a hypocrite to me. If you pick safety, you need to imagine the safest state that the government could provide for you. Wouldn't that be a police state? So answer me: FREEDOM OR SAFETY?

[TheAnalyst]

There is no such thing as absolute freedom or absolute safety. Like most things, reality is somewhere in the middle.

I know you like to bring up the library thing. To my knowledge it has been used once by the FBI in an investigation. Section 215 has been tightened down somewhat in the new legislation. A judge still has to approve the FBI's request. The Patriot Act doesn't even mention libraries, it's just a scare tactic used by the media. It's not like the government is running around willy-nilly looking at everybody's email, the books they take from the library, or what they buy at Wal-Mart. Can you imagine the resources that would take? They only look at this stuff when you are suspected of terrorism or have ties to terrorists. So FF, I don't think they are watching everything you do. You can sleep peacefully at night. If you give them reason to look, then they are going to.

I understand your point of view. And yes, the government has the potential to take things too far. That does concern me a great deal. However, if by them monitoring international calls provides a measure of security for me and my family, I can live with that. Where do I draw the line? I haven't quite figured that out yet. There are probably alot of shady things going on in the shadows (like it has always been) that I might not agree with. I would rather have it down on paper (Patriot Act) than have it going on without my knowledge at all.

I still have the freedom to do whatever I want, go wherever I want. But it appears that in the long range, we are headed for Big Brother. I don't think that is a Republican or Democrat thing, it just seems like it's the overall direction of our society. And that is scary!!!!!!

[Pale Rider]

I don't have the freedom to post on this forum anymore, whether by someone's design, or quirky equipment/ software glitches. Everytime (almost) I try to respond to a post I keep getting asked for my username/ password, and even after I enter it, I get sent back to the home page to try all over again. Now that's SUP-pression.

[Pale Rider]

Wow. 1 time out of a hundred. It does work, just not on the topics I REALLY want.