GOP Agenda

[fleaflicker]

Christianity is not a bad thing. Nor is Judaism, or really, any other religion that promotes ethics and caring for your fellow human being. So I don't mind Christian basic rules, because no matter what religion you follow (well, perhaps certain Muslim extremists would beg to differ, but probably most ordinary non terrorists Muslims would agree), it all comes down to the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have done unto you, and love your neighbor as yourself.

If one does that simple thing, he or she is basically living a moral lifestyle, whether or not that person really buys into all the rules and regulations that Jews and Christians have introduced into their religion. The main point of the Wiccan Rede is very similar to the Golden Rule: An it harm none, do what you will. Basically the same thing in a way.

The one thing I do mind about the Christian religion, is that anybody who disagrees is Godless, has no morals, is a pagan, or whatever. And homosexuals are freaks, deviants, immoral, evil, or whatever. Despite Matthew 7:1, which says, "Judge not lest ye be judged," most Christians are very judgemental people. And also, many fundamentalists Christians take the Bible as literal, and I don't really agree with that either. So I can appreciate the morals, but I don't appreciate the aspect of trying to force it upon everybody else.

[LionPride]

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our
Constitution" made the following statement: "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law thus creating an oligarchy - the rule of few over many.

So if you can appreciate the morals of Christianity, than why do people like you try to totally remove it from our government? Keeping "Under God" in our pledge, displaying the Ten Commandments in court rooms, allowing Boy Scouts who honor God to have tours of military facilities, a prayer in school, etc., etc. None of this is shoving it down your throat - you can chose to ignore it if you want.

Why do people like you believe it's ok to kill an unborn child as a form of birth control, but believe we should leave convicted murderers back into society?

You say you don't want Christian values pushed on you. Well, I don't want the homosexual lifestyle as being ok pushed on me either.

I will never understand this liberal mindset. If believing those values are wrong is judgemental, then so be it - you're opinions mean literally nothing to me. But don't sit there and tell me my beliefs are sinful and that I'm being judgemental because I disagree with you.

[southpaw]

The ironic thing is which side do you think the Founding Fathers would be on it they were alive today? Would they look at the DC bureacracy and judges legislating from the bench as tyranny?

[Lemmy]

"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.”
--James Madison


But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

[CRLionDawg]

Apparently Flea you are overlooking a fundamental premise of Christianity?

[southpaw]

Yes Lemmy the founding fathers made it clear that noparticular religion would be forced unto the citizens or state sponsored religion. The Founding fathers recognized the fact that Europe in the 17th century fought the 30 years war where it was Protestant v. Catholic. The war was mostly fought in Germany where a third of its citizens were killed in the conflict and most others displaced. That led to a emigration to America for many of the protestant Germans.

The founding fathers wanted to avoid this in America with both Protestant English, Scotch Irish, and Germans living beside Catholic Irish in America. Therefore not having gov't sponsor a particular religion was meant to avoid any conflict.

What others especially the ACLU have done is to try to eradicate religion based on the separation of Church and State assumption. The Founding Fathers would be appalled at these attempts today.

[Lemmy]

I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world ...

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Thomas Jefferson

My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
Thomas Paine

Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.
James Madison

Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.
George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792

[Lemmy]

ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Treaty of Tripoli 1796

[fleaflicker]

Yes, yes, the most important aspect of the Christian religion is that there is only one God, and that he sent his son to die for you. And if you don't believe that, you are going to Hades (since I'm not allowed to state the more obvious name for the destination). Since everybody who doesn't believe is going to Hades, let's go out, preach, evangalize, and do everything we can to try and force our religion upon everybody else, because it is for their own good. Isn't that why we killed all those Muslims in the Crusades? After all, they were (and still are) pagans, and it was for their own good. And what about the Salem Witch trials? Anybody who was even suspected of being a witch was pretty much burned at the stake since they were presumed to be pagans, satanists, non believers, whatever. Many of those women were probably good Christians who were victimized by hateful neighbors, trial without jury, and a Church that had put the fear of God into everybody.

So you'll have to excuse me if I don't buy into all thise BS about forcing Christianity upon other people. It has been tried numerous times in the past, and it resulted in a lot of dead people. If you look at Lemmy's quotes from the founding fathers and think about it, it actually makes sense. This country was founded upon the premise of freedom. Many men have fought and died for that freedom. These founding fathers weren't about to have a government that ruled over people with an iron fist, no matter if it was for their 'own good' or whatever. These men no doubt had a historic perspective that a tyrant church run amok could be just as bad (if not worse) than a tyrant king. Look at the history books.
So trying to force Christianity down your neighbor's throat is not a good idea. However, being a Christian and practicing what you preach as far as morals and ethics, I don't mind at all. In fact, you're probably a better person for it. But you are still no better than an ethical and moral being that isn't a Christian.

[southpaw]

Freedom of religion not freedom from religion. The left- ACLU secularists would have the US be in the latter. The founding fathers framed the constitution for the former. Lemmy you make good arguments but on quote doesn't make your case. Citing one passage doesn't articulate a postion.