How Elite is Elite?

[say_oww]

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/stor ... al-complex

Interesting article... I love the pic!!! Curious as to what everyone else's take is since the creation of the palace in Windber.

[JustWrestle]

Good read, and I agree...I can remember when I was growing up the whole travel baseball and basketball thing was just really getting popular. I know a couple of my friends who played on these travel teams and one kid whose parents even moved him down to Florida so he could play all year around. Guess what...none of em' even went went pro...or even Division 1. This is the kind of crap that burns kids out, ruins their bodies and really takes the enjoyment out of the game for them. The IronHorse complex is a great example of it. I've heard a few crazy stories already and it's just started.

- If you skip an Iron Horse game for another league game, you're no longer permitted to play at Iron Horse. Forever.
- They've also essentially put an end to the City pony and colt leagues by refusing to be flexible with any scheduling yet expecting the city league to bow down to them.

Hopefully parents will wake up to the fact that their kid playing a sport all year around and investing thousands of dollars in it doesn't mean their kid is going to the bigs

[d6footballfan]

The more PT, the better. I do know of several kids however who do/did specialize and play year round, and yes they did get D1 and pro offers, but; 1) they do or did have the skills and talent to go to that D1 level and 2) they don't go exclusive of other sports as it actually helps them achieve their ultimate goals in their choice sport.

Leagues that practice exclusivity will be their own demise, it happened here in Hunt. Co. with their VFW teener program, where a once thriving league was reduced to almost complete rubble due to their ludicrous requirements to pay and play in their league and on their diamond of dreams baseball field. Kids and parents pretty much told them no way.

[abpk2903]

The thing that makes me laugh is you will see a piece of press (newspaper, Internet column, Facebook post, ect) that headlines "Local U9 team wins a multi-state tournament," then you look at the picture and see a bunch of kids that look they can own a drivers license and possibly buy a pack of cigarettes.

It makes you wonder, are these "elite" travel teams really the most talented local athletes or are they the only local kids that have peach fuzz on their upper lip? There are naturally gifted athletes but how much does going 4 hours away to play against others really improve their ability to play the game. Are fundamentals really being taught at that much of a better level or are we showing 11 year olds how to make the hard slider their out pitch?

How many kids that hit puberty at a normal age stop playing sports because they didn't qualify for these elite teams when in reality they are one of the talented athletes in the area but their body hasn't caught up yet?

I coached a Pony team about a half dozen years ago and kept a pitch count. I only let pitchers mix in a curve ball about twice an inning. IMO, you gotta learn how to locate and mix speeds accurately before firing up breaking pitches. I limited each pitcher to about 65-80 pitches a game. After that, the arm shows obvious fatigue and develops bad/dangerous habits. Besides the kids were 12-14, the object was to help them learn the game. If one kid assumes 80% of the pitching how does that help the other 5 kids on the roster that are trying to learn the same position.

Halfway through the season, I started tracking opposition pitch count because I noticed we seen the same pitchers game after game and they would go deep into the game every start. One coach allowed a kid to throw 130+ pitches in a 9 inning extra inning game. Most of his pitches were breaking balls too. It blew my mind.

[d6footballfan]

Pitch count guru. Pitchers today are not the same as they used to be. Cuellar, Gibson, Marichal, etc. and the list goes on and on, these guys never were controlled by their number of pitches, and they were better and more reliable than the pitchers we have today. So, Perhaps we should have age rules in the majors where only 19-24 year olds can play minor league and older than 24 can play in the bigs. NOT!!!

[d6footballfan]

Pitch count guru. Pitchers today are not the same as they used to be. Cuellar, Gibson, Marichal, etc. and the list goes on and on, these guys never were controlled by their number of pitches, and they were better and more reliable than the pitchers we have today. So, Perhaps we should have age rules in the majors where only 19-24 year olds can play minor league and older than 24 can play in the bigs. NOT!!!

[JustWrestle]

Those guys also weren't throwing the ball 100 mph...not to mention curveballs and sliders since they were 12 years old. You're comparing apples and oranges.

[Manfred]

Those guys also weren't throwing the ball 100 mph...not to mention curveballs and sliders since they were 12 years old. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Excuse me. YES they were. Not exactly 100 mph, but they were bringing the heat mid-upper 90's consistently. IDK about Cuellar, but Gibson and Marichal, as per D6ff's example, most certainly were. I grew up watching guys like that.

[d6footballfan]

I remember watching Gibson pitch and go after hitters, literally. He was tenacious. If any pitcher today pitched the way he did, they would have so many fines they'd be losing money to play ball :) And yes he could throw upper 90's. I dont know why one thinks the decade one pitched in has anything to do with how fast they could throw a baseball ???

[say_oww]

Pitch count guru. Pitchers today are not the same as they used to be. Cuellar, Gibson, Marichal, etc. and the list goes on and on, these guys never were controlled by their number of pitches, and they were better and more reliable than the pitchers we have today. So, Perhaps we should have age rules in the majors where only 19-24 year olds can play minor league and older than 24 can play in the bigs. NOT!!!

The difference between now and 50 years ago (yes the 60's were 50 years ago) is that those guys you mentioned weren't pitching competitively in their preteen years on a travel team playing four games in one day and then humping it back home to play again the next day. And the whole reliability argument has to be taken into context. Those pitchers pitched before the DH, before the small ballparks, before steroids, and before the league added ten more teams. Oh, and let's not forget, the mound was 18 inches high back then. Not 12! So at least get some perspective.

Science has shown that, just like concussions in youth football, arm injuries in youth pitchers are more damaging than adults. Cuellar , Gibson, and Marichal were dominant, so was Koufax - possibly even moreso. Koufax' arm gave out early in his career - but I don't hear anyone dissing him. Pitch counts do matter, but like everything else, they are different for each kid. A soft 70 mph high school thrower can throw 140 curveballs a game and not have an arm problem - I see it all of the time. An adult who is throwing in the 90s at 195 pounds is a different story. But then again, a guy like Nolan Ryan could throw 150 pitches a game at 95 mph and never have arm problems. I'm sure DNA had some affect as well in both situations.

The bottom line is that just like it is ludicrous to have 9 year olds wearing pads and hitting each other three times a week in August for Friday Night Tykes, its also ludicrous to complain about a pitch limit for a kid the same age who weighs 60 pounds.