PIRATES

[WallyPipp]

This is the most telling statistic there is in terms of the Pirates front office's lack of a desire win...the last time the Pirates signed a free agent to a multi-year contract was, 2016 Ivan Nova!!!! That is to say a new talent, outside of the organization signing. Not counting the guys they have signed that were already with the team. They have gone almost a decade without bringing in a realistic free agent with the true intent on improving the roster! How is that even possible? So, instead they are signing scrubs, scraps, left overs and has-beens just to fill out a roster. Having to sign a contract with the Pirates as a veteran major league player must really sting. That's about as low as a player can get in the MLB. The Pittsburgh Pirates are the worst professional franchise in sports. You may be able to point to others that have a longer streak of being pathetic than the Pirates, but I doubt you can find one that continuously does nothing to try to win and get better as much as the Pirates do. The best two jobs in professional sports are the manger of the Pirates and the head coach of the Steelers. The expectation is only to achieve mediocrity. If you're in either of these roles and you manage your money right and you'll be a multi millionaire once you quit, or the outrage from fans just becomes too much to take and they have to fire you. You are completely insulated in either of these two roles because it's quite obvious that neither organization truly has any expectations beyond just making money.

[WallyPipp]

Pirates fire Shelton. I guess we'll find out if he was the problem....LOL

[footballfan1]

I started this post but I agree that Shelton was not necessarily the problem. Listening to some sports people today talk about it and simply stating what manager could be successful there with the lack of wanting to bring in quality free agents. A couple people posted the same thing that the unwillingness to bring in players that could help them win is not on there menu that making money is. Could any current manager in Major League Baseball go to Pittsburgh and be successful? Probably not

[footballfan1]

It doesn't look like any one player from the Altoona Curve is necessarily tearing it up on offense at this point. Are there any Triple A players that could be a quality everyday hitter that is in Indianapolis right now?

[reugenev]

Shelton was not THE problem but one of many.

His in-game decisions, considering the players he had, made a below average team a very bad one.

I would prefer they move to Nashville, at least then they may have the $$ to put a quality product on the field.

As a lifelong baseball fan, it is difficult to watch.

[WallyPipp]

I would prefer to not see the Pirates leave Pittsburgh. I would prefer to see MLB institute a minimum salary amount that a team must spend each season. Something else that's easy to forget here is that when Ben Cherington was hired as GM, I think in 2019, a guy named Matt Arnold was also a candidate and interviewed by the Pirates. Arnold had spent a lot of years up to that point working for Tampa Bay and Milwaukee--two small market teams that have been very successful. Arnold was hired by the Brewers to be their GM, Pirates hired Cherington. Brewers have won the division 3 times since then. We know what the Pirates haven't done under Cherington. The only thing Cherington can claim is that he won a world series with the Red Sox as their GM, but a lot of folks will claim that was with Theo Epstein's roster that he put together before leaving to head to the Cubs. That concept should sound familiar to Steelers fans...Mike Tomlin winning with Bill Cowher's team anyone????

Cherington is as big of an issue as Shelton was. Cherington has stated that he wanted the opportunity to build an organization from the ground up when he came to Pittsburgh. Building from the ground up requires a foundation. There's already been other posts about their lack of talent in the minors. The AAA Indianapolis Indians are actually 2 games above .500 on the season, but they're 3rd from last in # of home runs in their league of 20 teams and have a .693 OPS. The AA Altoona team is 2nd to last in home runs so far this season out of a 12 team league and they have a .636 OPS. Baseball has become all about hitting and scoring runs. Pitching is great and it's important, but if you can't consistently change games with 1 swing, then you lose more than you win in todays MLB. Pitchers only go once every 5 games. There's 27 outs per game, every game, with which to hit a HR. That doesn't bode well for the future of the Pirates team. Home runs win games, therefore they cost money to have dudes on your roster that hit them consistently. Offense costs money in today's professional sports and therefore the Pirates will never compete, unless there is a mandatory league minimum team salary expense imposed.

[Manfred]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different or better outcome to somehow magically happen.

[abpk2903]

I would prefer to not see the Pirates leave Pittsburgh. I would prefer to see MLB institute a minimum salary amount that a team must spend each season. Something else that's easy to forget here is that when Ben Cherington was hired as GM, I think in 2019, a guy named Matt Arnold was also a candidate and interviewed by the Pirates. Arnold had spent a lot of years up to that point working for Tampa Bay and Milwaukee--two small market teams that have been very successful. Arnold was hired by the Brewers to be their GM, Pirates hired Cherington. Brewers have won the division 3 times since then. We know what the Pirates haven't done under Cherington. The only thing Cherington can claim is that he won a world series with the Red Sox as their GM, but a lot of folks will claim that was with Theo Epstein's roster that he put together before leaving to head to the Cubs. That concept should sound familiar to Steelers fans...Mike Tomlin winning with Bill Cowher's team anyone????

Cherington is as big of an issue as Shelton was. Cherington has stated that he wanted the opportunity to build an organization from the ground up when he came to Pittsburgh. Building from the ground up requires a foundation. There's already been other posts about their lack of talent in the minors. The AAA Indianapolis Indians are actually 2 games above .500 on the season, but they're 3rd from last in # of home runs in their league of 20 teams and have a .693 OPS. The AA Altoona team is 2nd to last in home runs so far this season out of a 12 team league and they have a .636 OPS. Baseball has become all about hitting and scoring runs. Pitching is great and it's important, but if you can't consistently change games with 1 swing, then you lose more than you win in todays MLB. Pitchers only go once every 5 games. There's 27 outs per game, every game, with which to hit a HR. That doesn't bode well for the future of the Pirates team. Home runs win games, therefore they cost money to have dudes on your roster that hit them consistently. Offense costs money in today's professional sports and therefore the Pirates will never compete, unless there is a mandatory league minimum team salary expense imposed.

First off, give me a break with the Tomlin winning with Cowher's team nonsense. That is revisionist history. Cowher struggled mightily in the years he didn't have good QB play. In his 6 years prior to getting Big Ben he went 6-10 (missed playoffs), 10-5-1 (first round playoff exit), 13-3 (upset in AFCG), 9-7 (missed playoffs), 6-10 (missed playoffs), and 7-9 (missed playoffs)...Cowher also was not the GM. Part of the reason they were able to get some good players in the organization is because they drafted in the top half of the league several times in that 6 year span. He also went 8-8 and missed the playoffs in his final season. So I'm very confused how Tomlin won a Super Bowl and made another with the same players...

Now for the Pirates, why would the MLB owners do anything to put in a salary cap or salary floor??? Remember the league is ran by the owners. Why would they do anything to force the Pirates to be more competitive? That would be one more team they would have to then bid against for free agents and compete against for championships. The way the league is now, everyone makes money and the owners that want to complete only have to do so against about 12 other teams that are serious about trying to be competitive. The other 18 owners are happy because they are raking in money and have no recourse if they are not competitive. This isn't a Pirates only issue, although they are the poster child for the issue. But look around the league...Colorado, Oakland/Sacramento/LV, Miami, Chicago White Sox, Baltimore, Detroit, and many more make no effort to retain their top young talent and rarely ever take a stab at a top free agent. Keep in mind, these owners are billionaires many times over. I don't care what market they are in, if they really wanted talented players and to be competitive they could make the numbers work to bring in occasional top talent.

[WallyPipp]

I would prefer to not see the Pirates leave Pittsburgh. I would prefer to see MLB institute a minimum salary amount that a team must spend each season. Something else that's easy to forget here is that when Ben Cherington was hired as GM, I think in 2019, a guy named Matt Arnold was also a candidate and interviewed by the Pirates. Arnold had spent a lot of years up to that point working for Tampa Bay and Milwaukee--two small market teams that have been very successful. Arnold was hired by the Brewers to be their GM, Pirates hired Cherington. Brewers have won the division 3 times since then. We know what the Pirates haven't done under Cherington. The only thing Cherington can claim is that he won a world series with the Red Sox as their GM, but a lot of folks will claim that was with Theo Epstein's roster that he put together before leaving to head to the Cubs. That concept should sound familiar to Steelers fans...Mike Tomlin winning with Bill Cowher's team anyone????

Cherington is as big of an issue as Shelton was. Cherington has stated that he wanted the opportunity to build an organization from the ground up when he came to Pittsburgh. Building from the ground up requires a foundation. There's already been other posts about their lack of talent in the minors. The AAA Indianapolis Indians are actually 2 games above .500 on the season, but they're 3rd from last in # of home runs in their league of 20 teams and have a .693 OPS. The AA Altoona team is 2nd to last in home runs so far this season out of a 12 team league and they have a .636 OPS. Baseball has become all about hitting and scoring runs. Pitching is great and it's important, but if you can't consistently change games with 1 swing, then you lose more than you win in todays MLB. Pitchers only go once every 5 games. There's 27 outs per game, every game, with which to hit a HR. That doesn't bode well for the future of the Pirates team. Home runs win games, therefore they cost money to have dudes on your roster that hit them consistently. Offense costs money in today's professional sports and therefore the Pirates will never compete, unless there is a mandatory league minimum team salary expense imposed.

First off, give me a break with the Tomlin winning with Cowher's team nonsense. That is revisionist history. Cowher struggled mightily in the years he didn't have good QB play. In his 6 years prior to getting Big Ben he went 6-10 (missed playoffs), 10-5-1 (first round playoff exit), 13-3 (upset in AFCG), 9-7 (missed playoffs), 6-10 (missed playoffs), and 7-9 (missed playoffs)...Cowher also was not the GM. Part of the reason they were able to get some good players in the organization is because they drafted in the top half of the league several times in that 6 year span. He also went 8-8 and missed the playoffs in his final season. So I'm very confused how Tomlin won a Super Bowl and made another with the same players...

Now for the Pirates, why would the MLB owners do anything to put in a salary cap or salary floor??? Remember the league is ran by the owners. Why would they do anything to force the Pirates to be more competitive? That would be one more team they would have to then bid against for free agents and compete against for championships. The way the league is now, everyone makes money and the owners that want to complete only have to do so against about 12 other teams that are serious about trying to be competitive. The other 18 owners are happy because they are raking in money and have no recourse if they are not competitive. This isn't a Pirates only issue, although they are the poster child for the issue. But look around the league...Colorado, Oakland/Sacramento/LV, Miami, Chicago White Sox, Baltimore, Detroit, and many more make no effort to retain their top young talent and rarely ever take a stab at a top free agent. Keep in mind, these owners are billionaires many times over. I don't care what market they are in, if they really wanted talented players and to be competitive they could make the numbers work to bring in occasional top talent.

It's a QB league, that's modern football. What head coach was responsible for drafting Roethlisberger, not Tomlin. Yes, a few faces changed from when Cowher won his SB to when Tomlin did, but the core of the team, the top tier players, still remained. Tomlin has been able to scratch out slightly above average teams since his roster was completely void of Cowher influence but he never has achieved the top level of success without any Cowher fingerprints in the locker room. Cowher teams had a different mentality and level of accountability. That still remained for quite a few years after he left. Don't forget that in Cowher's last season, which he did finish 8-8, he played with a QB who was essentially a Marvel Comics super hero that just had his face rebuilt. They won 6 of their last 8 games that year. Just saying.

I never said I think an MLB league minimum salary will ever happen, for exactly the reasons you stated. I just said I'd much rather see that than to see the Pirates move to a new city. Force those small market teams to spend some money to compete instead of turning huge profits every season by default. The MLB, in my opinion, is no where near as interesting to follow as what it was 25 or 30 years ago. There's just not the parody between rosters as what there used to be.

This is good debate and discussion!

[Manfred]

LOL! I hope your last statement was an unintentional Freudian Slip. 'parody' is more like it actually is. I infer you meant to say 'parity'.