I am not Liberal. Are you?

[fleaflicker]

Yes Pale Rider, social security has improved lives for many people, and you're right that an increased ceiling alone is not the answer. But I just don't like the idea of taking everybody's social security money and gambling on something that isn't a sure thing. At least not all of it. Say 10 or 20% of their social security money would be invested in stocks and/or mutual funds, and whatever gains they get out of it would be reinvested. In other words, if I did this with my money after making a grand, I'd invest 100 dollars into stocks and mutual funds. Then, when I get my quarterly returns, I take those and reinvest it. If the stock price rises and I make money off it, I take that money and reinvest it. That sort of thing. Thing is, if we put say 50% in their and the stock market tanks, those elderly people have less than they would by doing nothing. That's half of an amount of money that wouldn't be enough if they had it in full. Just my thinking.

Also, so far I'm doing very well at saving money, though unfortunately, I ended up spending a fair amount on the trip, on things such as plane tickets and whatever. I also had to pay some bills as my parents don't have a dime, and they don't help me financially at all, basically. And here's the kicker, next year they want to claim me as a dependent so they get a discount. Yeah right! But that's a whole nother story. Nonetheless, I will be reinflating my bank account, and searching for a second part time job for the remainder of the summer. But being frugal with my money, I admit, is quite unusual for people my age. I have a friend about the same age who's a grand or two in debt for credit cards and such....

[Pale Rider]

Again, you selectively read. NOBODY said ANYTHING about 10, 20, % or greater amounts. IT'S F-O-U-R %! Hold your hand up. Spread your fingers. Curl your thumb in towards the palm. How many digits are still there? Thaaaat's right, dude, 4. Not 10, not 20, not 50, not 100. I said before, if it were MY choice, I WOULD opt to take out and invest as much as 10 percent, the Bush plan nowhere says you will have to.

I commend you on your frugality, and am sorry if I've offended. Just trying to clarify your sometimes tilted logic. It sounds like your upbringing isn't much different from my own, and I've made it a key point of my life to make my own way without dependency on others, especially family. You can pick your friends, nose, buttcrack, but not your relatives. The school of hard knocks is every bit as practical as the school of book-learnin'! I know many who have degrees out the wazoo and don't have a lick of common sense in their body. That's why when I hear stories of how people were millionaires and went broke before 30 because they were stupid, and now they've recovered it and then some because they learned to profit from their mistakes, some several times over, that to me has credibility. Not some Lib who has nothing but doom and gloom to say about anything, just because GW said so and not because it has any substance. Sometimes you just have to step out on FAITH. Oooops! That requires belief in GOD leading one down the right path, something which many here are reluctant to do. Or is it just a failure to believe in oneself? Interesting conundrum, isn't it?

[fleaflicker]

I read about the 4%, and I agree with you that it would not be enough. That's why I posted about the 10% or 20% being used for this purpose, rather than 4%. So I wasn't selectively reading, I was just ignoring it, as it wouldn't be enough. If one is to make a sizable profit in the stock market off of Social Security money, one must use more than 4% of it.

[Pale Rider]

Yes.... but you have to admit, 4 percent is better than NO percent, esp. when they are talking of increasing this and decreasing that. If I told you I would give you 100 bucks a month for the next twenty years before you retire, would you be satisfied with that? Maybe. Note that there will never be a chance of any more than that 100 bucks. Now, if I said I was going to give you 100 bucks, but if you wanted to, you could take 4 of those bucks and put them into some type of interest-accumulating account, whether stocks, bonds, mutuals, that in all PROBABILITY was going to earn you considerably more than the nothing you will earn if you do not invest it in anything. This is the government's attempt to help those with little chance of improving their lot because they did not plan wisely for their futures, as most of our previous generations did. If you and I are smart enough now, we will not rely on that proposed 4 percent investment, because we will have, on our own, invested much more than that, so we will have a greater inflation cushion as we hit retirement. I have previously given several accounts of how the sum of a few thousands of dollars can become multi-millions if properly invested and left to accumulate those dividends and interest over several decades. If you want to live for today, go ahead. Spend it now. But whatcha gonna do when you're old and gray- live in the county home because you're too poor to afford anything better and all your relatives are as poor as you? Does anyone remember the child's fable of the ant and the grasshopper? How the ant worked hard every day to gather and store enough food to get the colony through the cold, hard winter, while the grasshopper fiddled away and played each and every day? When the cold winds blew and grasshopper knew he'd screwed up, he went begging to the ant for food and shelter. Sorry Charlie!

[fleaflicker]

Well Pale Rider, it appears that one of us is actually agreeing with the other, even though it's hard to say who is agreeing with who, lol. Social Security is in a bad situation, but it never should have become THE primary retirement fund for anybody, let alone as many people as there are that rely on it. I need to plan my future wisely and plan for my retirement when the time comes that I have a steady income, or else I will be working the rest of my life. All of my income that currently goes into social security well be gone by time I reach retirement age. You, being middle aged, might see some of the money that you put into the system, but still many not see all of it, or enough to last you the rest of your days. Unfortunately, it seems that many of the senior citizens out there collecting social security haven't planned as well as they should have, and won't get to enjoy retirement as much as they could have with more careful planning.

[Pale Rider]

True, and true. But at least you are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and for you at least, it isn't an oncoming train! If for no other reason, I hope you and I have provoked enough intelligent thought for all those who have read all these dialogues and hopefully analyze their futures and take positive steps to improve their situations before it's too late.

[DCPassarelli]

Man, you guys need to take a class on economics. Seriously now, overall, even if there is a crash, given time you will get a gain higher then interest rates. The internet market collapse is much like the collapse of the car market much earlier. Most of the small companies died out, but a few rose above and had gains that were astronomical. If you invested evenly, you would have been fine.

Also, what about the other forms of investment? How many people are going to lose their fortunes when real estate drops? I know my aunt is, though I tried to convince her not to get in because she missed it. She is going to be buying high and selling low. How many other people are going to be doing the same? Also, people should be able to put the money where they want. The government should set up different types of accounts. Technologies, Agriculture, Real Estate, etc. That way people have more control but not enough that they can screw themselves over. Personally, I don't think the government should decide how people save their money, and because they are, I am going to have to save a further 15% of my future pay incase something ever happens.

[Pale Rider]

Don't forget it is possible to make lots of ka-ching in a depressed market, like the "futures" speculators do. That's how Hillary made 100K in cattle futures a few years back.

[fleaflicker]

One might lose a little money when the stock market goes down, but that's actually the best time to invest. When the prices are really low, you can get a bigger return on the stock market without investing as much money, at least when it rebounds.

[Pale Rider]

Absolutely! Now you're catching on! Same deal with real estate- you have to be a shrewd person with some knowledge of finances and construction, buy a fixer-upper, turn it over (sell) at a profit, and repeat, from step 1. Many ways to make a killing.